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Talk:Gold
Gold, worthless? Did they actually say that Gold is worthless to the Ferengi? If so that's an error, given in the ep "The Last Outpost" the Ferengi called it valuable. I'd like to know the exact line. --TOSrules 23:03, Nov 18, 2004 (CET) :The most significant statement is from "Who Mourns for Morn?", in which Quark explicitly states that gold is the worthless part of gold-pressed latinum (and at the end of the episode he's grossly disappointed when a shipment of bricks turns out to be just gold) I think it's reasonable to assume that in previous episodes when the Ferengi mention "gold" ("The Last Outpost", "Captain's Holiday") they're actually just abbreviating for gold-pressed latinum. -- EtaPiscium 00:05, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) I believe the line was, "And they adorn themselves with gold, a waste of the valuable metal". If gold was valueless in "the Last Outpost" they would have no reason to call it Valuable. Clearly Gold is valuable without the Latinum. --TOSrules 00:47, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) :"Who Mourns for Morn" makes it absolutely clear that gold by itself is worthless. In "The Last Outpost", the Ferengi were referring to a combadge, which is composed of a composite that includes gold in it (see "Time's Arrow"). Since the Ferengi are familiar with advanced technology, it is likely they were just saying "gold" as an abbreviation for the alloy. This is supported by the fact that Riker says "it is gold" in response, when he certainly knows that combadge casings are composed of more than just gold. -- EtaPiscium 00:53, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) "The Last Outpost" makes it clear gold is valuable, and "Whom Mourns for Morn" Makes it clear gold is not valuable. But their admiration of gold when they first find it out, and the line I quoted clearly say that. He said that wearing gold is a waste of the valuable metal. Your explanation only works if you do not read it with the line. He made NO reference to the other metals. If I thought it was strange for a valuable Diamond to be in a gold ring would I say, "You wear gold, that is a valuable waste of the metal" (or rock). It's as clear as night and day. --TOSrules 02:29, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) :What I'm saying is that it IS possible to interpret the line in "The Last Outpost" to mean that gold is not valuable, where it is NOT possible to interpret the events in "Who Mourns for Morn?" to mean that gold is valuable. Their "admiration" for the supposed gold in the combadge would be exactly the same as if the combadge was made of gold-pressed latinum. As for the "waste of the valuable metal", for all we know latinum is a metal (it certainly looks metallic) and that's what they're referring to, or maybe they mean that it's pointless to use gold in combadges when it's better used to suspend latinum with. The point is that the line CAN be interpreted differently, and so there is no need to think that it represents a contradiction. -- EtaPiscium 03:44, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) ::A+. This would make a good footnote. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 03:52, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) I understand what you are trying to do. Allot of errors can be worked out if you make it out as vague. But there is no mention of Latmum or the other metals in the com badge. You have to take the sentence as a whole, wearing gold is a waist of the valuable metal. There is only one way to read that sentence, (Cap Mike do you agree?). Your explanation has little canon evidence to it, only data's mention of the make up of the com badge which does not apply because they make no note to them. I'm sorry, but Gold is Valuable in TNG, and valueless in DS9. Ex. (Steal ring with gold in it), They adorn themselves with Steal, a waste of the valuable metal. Even if we had steal pressed gold, that still does not work, because steal would have NOTHING to do with the issue. I think we need others on MA to give there opinion on the issue. --TOSrules 04:31, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) :Let me repeat my first response: the most likely interpretation is that "gold" is a contraction for "gold-pressed latinum", because that's the valuable form, and that's the form it almost always appears in. Maybe the Ferengi didn't know that the combadge wasn't made of gold-pressed latinum, but I think there is definitely room for interpretation. There is evidence that latinum has been used as a currency for centuries (see "Acquisition"), not to mention that it doesn't even make sense for gold to be valuable in an era with replication technology. Also note that in all episodes of TNG where gold is mentioned, Picard never mentions the option of replicating it even when it would've given him an advantage. This either means that for some bizarre reason Federation replicators can't make gold when they can make virtually every other element, or that when the Ferengi say "gold" they mean something else. -- EtaPiscium 04:42, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) :More canon evidence that "gold" is a contraction for "gold-pressed latinum": In the episode "Acquisition", the Ferengi aboard the ship use "gold" and "latinum" interchangeably throughout. When they're looking for Archer's "vault", they say both lines like "that's where you (Archer) keep your latinum, hmm?" and "I plan to count every bar of that gold myself." Obviously they're referring to gold-pressed latinum when they say either "gold" or "latinum". -- EtaPiscium 05:02, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) At the core of your argument is that the word gold is a contraction for Gold Pressed Latinum, which only works if they think there is Latinum inside the Communicator. But if this was the case, they would have favored Latinum over gold in the final sentence, "The adorn themselves with Latinum, a waist of the valuable metal.". For sake of argument if we had Steal Pressed Latinum today and you were to say that sentence, "And they adorn themselves with steel, a waste of the valuable metal", it still does not work. You'd name the valuable part, not the valueless part. :Why would they have favored using "they adorn themselves with latinum" over "they adorn themselves with gold" if both "gold" and "latinum" are acceptable contractions for "gold-pressed latinum"? I've already shown an example where the Ferengi use both contractions equally to refer to the same thing. Saying that "you'd name the valuable part, not the valueless part" is a value judgment on their language, which is contradicted by the onscreen evidence anyway. -- EtaPiscium 05:16, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) I've accepted the contraction theory, but think about it, "they adorn themselves with steal, a waste of the valuable metal". Your explanation strains believability, it is a clear cut ERROR. --TOSrules 05:23, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) :::We've already noted as such, it is an error. But the explanation, and the footnote, will portray that. I don't see what else you are trying to argue. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 06:26, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) I meant to direct that to Eta, he still believes that it is not truly an error. --TOSrules 06:35, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) ::::That whole "worthless gold" comment has always bugged me... I actually tend to agree that it should be disregarded, although it might not be wise to simply force that interpretation on people as latinum's explanation seems to do at present. I know how many Trekkies like to come up with crazy explanations for this and that. But I do know that other episodes, such as support the idea of gold being valuable (they refer to the gold-pressed latinum and later go "Your words are of no value to us!" "You gold is!") so the way it's spelled out on gold is probably best. --Vedek Dukat (Talk) 04:02, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::::How much more in depth was it explored before? It sounds fine the way it is on this page now. I re-worded the latinum page a little though. Sloan 04:31, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC) Well the point I made that sparked this new version, is when I noted that "The Perfect Mate" Clearly shows that Ferengi value gold. I think the article should also be written to clearly point the issue out. I do not know how to write this up because I am not DS9 literate. --TOSrules 05:22, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC) I don't blame you for not knowing what my edit said, it was changed so quickly, but it stated that in the episode Ferengi still appeared to value gold. --TOSrules 21:20, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::::::I tend to think that, when Quark said gold was worthless, he either meant that it was worthless to him for his line of business (though I don't see why) or that it was worthless compared to the latinum that should have been within the gold. --From Andoria with Love 17:51, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::::It probably wasn't your edit, TOSrules, based on looking at the page history. I think that might have just brought it to people's attention by pointing the page out on recent changes. And as for you being illiterate, no one's perfect! I think Shran is right, or perhaps the Ferengi value gold insomuch as they can use it when dealing with other civilizations, or... whatever. Basically, the established canon said it's valuable, except those two discrepencies, so it's better to focus on them, as they have the burden of proof. --Vedek Dukat (Talk) 18:07, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::::::Canon material states that gold is of little value to the Federation, since it can be easily replicated and Earth has no futher need of money. The Ferengi still valued it until a few seasons into TNG. By the time DS9 came out, gold just became a medium for containing latinum (which either cannot be replicated efficiently, or at all...it isn't said why) and Quark said maybe a few primitive civilizations still considered it valuable. The episodes cited say it all.--Mike Nobody 09:24, 12 Nov 2005 (UTC) At least up to TNG Season 5 gold was valuable --TOSrules 04:46, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::::::: In little green men, quarks conversation with the general proves that gold is at the very least not worthless to ferengi. ::::::::* Quark : Don't you have any gemstones or precious minerals? ::::::::* General : What, like gold? ::::::::* Quark : Gold is good. :::::::: ::::::::: This may be late on the topic but I always understood the whole quote differently. For me at least, when Quark goes like, "it's just worthless gold", crying, it's clearly just disappointment. Like if someone gives you a stack of money, with $100 bills on the sides. You separate them to find all the bills inside the huge stack are $1 bills and you'd be like, "Damn! They're one dollar bills!". Or if you find a map that leads to a chest full of diamonds, pure cut diamonds. You open it and there's gold and you think, "Crap! It's gold, stupid... worthless... gold!". Like you're mad. It doesn't mean gold or $1 bills are worthless, just that by comparison they're like nothing. To a Ferengi everything is worth something. Gold, Silver, stones, anything that you might make a profit off of. It's just that Latinum is far more rare than anything else. When Ferengi ignore gold and only mention latinum, it's just another way of them trying to look like they don't even bother with the small stuff. If they could make a profit off dirt, even that would be valuable to them at that moment. Just think of it this way. If gold really meant nothing to them, why would they make GOLD-pressed latinum? – Saphsaph 07:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)